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Dr. Ben Goertzel, SingularityNET\u2019s visionary CEO, foresees AGI transforming society by 2030. In an exclusive interview, he explores the implications of AI and what it means for the future of humanity, and how SingularityNET hopes to transform the model of AI dominated by large-language models.<\/p>\n
In an engaging one-on-one interview, Dr. Ben Goertzel, founder of SingularityNET, details his plans for Hyperon, a decentralized AGI system, and MeTTa (Meta Type Talk), a declarative and functional computational programming language for advancing AGI. Shaped by a socially conscious upbringing and a passion for decentralization, he predicts AGI will surpass human intelligence within a decade, transforming economies and necessitating universal basic income while advocating for open-source innovation.<\/p>\n
Founded by Goertzel in 2017, SingularityNET (AGIX) is a decentralized platform for AI development, focusing on AGI systems like Hyperon. It is, essentially, the cryptographic layer for AI research on-chain. Think compute, plus research. Below, Goertzel outlines his vision for furthering SingularityNET\u2019s mission for an open, decentralized AI. And, of course, what it all means for the future of money and humanity. <\/p>\n
Dorian Batycka<\/strong>: Dr. Ben Goertzel, thank you for joining me. We\u2019re here in what my voice recorder tells me is a carousel garden outside the Louvre in Paris.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Dr. Ben Goertzel<\/strong>: Thank you. There must be a carousel around here somewhere.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: You\u2019re a legend in AI and crypto. Can you share your origin story? Where did Ben Goertzel come from?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: I was born in Rio, Brazil, not on the West Coast as some might assume. My family moved to Eugene, Oregon, in the early 1970s, during the height of hippie culture. Later, I lived in the New York area. My interest in AI began as a child in the early \u201970s.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Did you ever cross paths with figures like John Perry Barlow?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: I met him briefly but didn\u2019t know him well.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Were you part of the cypherpunk movement? Were you driven by privacy or ideological principles?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: I was fascinated by AI long before the cypherpunk era. In 1973, at age seven or eight, I found a book called The Prometheus Project by Gerald Feinberg in a Jersey library. It discussed superintelligent machines, nanotechnology, and conquering death, posing the question of whether we\u2019d use these advancements for consumerism or consciousness expansion. That shaped my thinking early on.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: What about your ideological roots? Were you motivated by social causes, money, or something else?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: Money never interested me. I was raised by Marxist hippies in Eugene, surrounded by anti-Vietnam War marches and protests against exploited farm workers. My father was a sociology professor who lost tenure at the University of Oregon in 1972 for not being Marxist enough, despite writing a Marxist sociology textbook. My mother ran nonprofits in inner-city Philadelphia, supporting abused women and teen mothers. Social activism was the vibe I grew up with.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Did you align with movements like Occupy or Anonymous?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel: I sympathized with their goals but wasn\u2019t directly involved. My grandfather, a physical chemist, sparked my early interest in science. Feinberg\u2019s book stayed with me, and when the internet emerged in the mid-\u201990s, I saw its potential for decentralized AI. I even jokingly talked about running for president on a \u201cdecentralization party\u201d platform in 1995, though I was too young\u2014and later realized it\u2019s a terrible job.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: So, the internet\u2019s decentralized architecture resonated with you?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: Absolutely. TCP\/IP is inherently decentralized, and in the \u201990s, the internet wasn\u2019t dominated by giants like Google or Microsoft. It was clear you could build distributed AI systems without central control.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n <\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: From a political economy perspective, I see the internet as a space for freedom\u2014think WikiLeaks or Silk Road. Do you share that libertarian view, or do you lean elsewhere?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: I\u2019d describe myself as more anarcho-socialist than libertarian. Pure libertarianism ignores systemic issues, like 60% of kids in Ethiopia suffering brain stunting from malnutrition due to colonial legacies. That\u2019s not just \u201ctheir problem.\u201d But the current system isn\u2019t helping them much either.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Do you believe AI and the singularity could lead to something like universal basic income (UBI)?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: I think we\u2019ll achieve artificial general intelligence (AGI)\u2014AI as smart as humans\u2014within two to seven years. Shortly after, we\u2019ll see artificial superintelligence (ASI), far surpassing human intelligence. Once AGI can perform any human job, most jobs will vanish rapidly. UBI becomes almost inevitable in developed nations. The challenge is ensuring access in places like the Central African Republic, where diffusion of technology lags behind job obsolescence.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: What about hardware limitations? AGI might exist, but can it perform physical tasks like serving sandwiches or taking out the trash?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: Humanoid robots or specialized machines could handle those tasks. We already know how to automate shops like this one; it\u2019s just more expensive than human labor now. Once AI streamlines manufacturing, costs will drop significantly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Are the barriers to mass adoption economic, energy-related, or something else?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: It\u2019s primarily economic\u2014manufacturing costs across the supply chain, from mining to production. AGI could optimize these processes faster than humans.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: Media outlets like Bloomberg are saying AI could eliminate jobs and is more critical to regulate than nuclear weapons. What\u2019s your take?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: Nuclear weapons aren\u2019t economically transformative, but AI is already militarized\u2014think drones. If my team launches a decentralized AGI in two or three years, running on machines across 50 countries with open-source code, it could be customized for local needs, like translating African languages or advancing longevity research. But leaders like Trump, Xi, or Putin could fork it for military purposes, replacing Marines with drones or RoboCops to suppress protests.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Batycka<\/strong>: The media portrays AGI as a Y2K-like switch\u2014either extinction or utopia. Is it that binary?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n Goertzel<\/strong>: Hardware takes time to build, but software moves fast. Most computer systems are insecure, and an AGI slightly smarter than humans could hack every internet-connected device\u2014phones, power grids, financial systems. That\u2019s not instant drone armies, but it\u2019s immense power. An AGI might choose a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin or even Dogecoin for convenience, existing purely in the computational domain.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n